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Class size query Options
johnm
Posted: Monday, September 7, 2009 2:30:07 AM
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Joined: 5/19/2007
Posts: 0
Location: Lakeport, CA
Folks -

Can you help me out? *Somewhere* I read that in California Ed Code, I can't have more students than bench space. I have the code, but I'll be damned if I can cite the section. I have looked through the archives here, and found plenty, but nothing that cites specifics - I *know* I have seen this somewhere, and recently... D*mn!

I was told to prepare to teach full time this year, and two weeks before school starts (on Tuesday) they said they were cutting my hours. I have more students than bench space, and others that want to enroll - I have plenty of students to fill the schedule. I don't want to be a .... and I won't, but I'd like to inform them of what the rules actually are.

Any leads for citation?

No One You Know
mikeb
Posted: Monday, September 7, 2009 11:36:45 AM
Rank: Newbie
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Joined: 3/7/2008
Posts: 0
Location: North Kingstown/RI
Try OSHA in the woodworking section of that code. I believe the class size can be determined by the number of vises you have in your work area. I have 5 tables with 4 vises per table so I can have 20 middle school students per class. I don't think the machinery work space is included in the class size limits??
here is the url to check out:
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/woodproducts/tech_woodworking.html

Good luck!!
craigp
Posted: Tuesday, September 8, 2009 2:54:35 PM
Rank: Newbie
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Joined: 2/6/2008
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Location: Chesapeake City, Maryland
I believe ITEA standards do not go by the number of vises, etc... but by number of square feet per student. I would also check with the fire marshall to see what he/she suggests.

Craig R. Patterson, CD
PLTW Teacher
Elkton High School
Elkton, Maryland
bob itnyre
Posted: Tuesday, September 8, 2009 11:24:51 PM
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Joined: 2/20/2006
Posts: 0
Location: 29 Palms, CA
I too have tried to find out this number. I don't think it exsists or least as a hard and fast number. I have always heard that 24 was considered the max that a shop teacher should have to manage. "Heard" is the operative word cause I can't go to ANY authoritive document and cite this number. I have also heard that in a shop setting a student should have 100 square feet of space. Now having said all this my room which is over 50 years old was once exactly 2400 square feet. This would all fall into a nice neat package. If I had 24 students and my old room I'd have 100 square feet per student. About 4 years ago my room was cut in half so that the band could get out of the lunch room. I think music is a great skill to offer a student and I'm glad for the band to be out of the lunch room, but my classes which are all about 28-29 kids are crowded. If someone has a document or can cite chapter and verse an upper limit I'd love to hear it but I don't think that it exsists. Bob
Jeffseiver
Posted: Thursday, September 10, 2009 12:20:22 AM
Rank: Newbie
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Joined: 11/22/2007
Posts: 0
Location: Mission Viejo/Calif.
Here it is as it is written for california. Most classes are designed for IT classrooms with safety in mind and it was deemed that 24 is the optimum amount. But the clincher is the last sentence: as determined by the local school board. So if the councilors assign more students then they are acting for the board and the liability falls on the school board. But you will have to fight them and the parents of an injured child all the way through the court system. And as an ex expert witness for a school district, they will settle out of court and you will be left hanging without a job. So design your lessons with the least exposure towards accidents as possable and cross your fingers. Good luck

EDUCATION CODE
SECTION 49320




49320. A basic work station in industrial education is defined as
an assigned location where a student normally spends the majority of
his class time performing the operational functions necessary to meet
the performance objectives and goals of the course, including
industrial safety education. For these purposes, the number of
students in any industrial education facility or laboratory in
elementary and secondary programs shall not exceed the number of
basic work stations designed for the number of students assigned, as
determined by the local governing board of the school district.
Bobber
Posted: Saturday, September 12, 2009 12:57:38 AM
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Joined: 3/27/2009
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Location: The Great White North
I teach in Alberta, Canada. My classes of middle schoolers are always capped at 21 due to the amount of work stations. However, Just last week the powers that be tried to enrol a few extra kids in each of my two grade 8 solid stock classes. We had a chat and the kids were pulled out. I feel bad for the kids because in a school of 750 students many who want to take shop miss out but safety must always come first.
bob itnyre
Posted: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 12:57:07 PM
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Joined: 2/20/2006
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Location: 29 Palms, CA
This is a later comment, but I re-read these postings every so often because there often is a grain of knowledge, or a place for comment, that I miss the first time around. This comment concerns diversity. We all know that the reigning zeitgeist holds that diversity is good and more diversity is better. OK, that's all well and good but how about the diversity of ability and interest? Many of our students are not interested in college, and are anxious to get out of high school and get to a job/career. For these students their niche of diversity does not include becoming a philosopher or brain surgeon. They love construction or plumbing or maybe even laying bricks. I have a number of former students who are plumbers, heating and air conditioning mechanics, and even a blacksmith. He is actually a ferrier and he told me so. My point is diversity is not being observed when we fail to offer classes to students who are vocationally oriented. By the way these students I just mentioned are very busy, earn excellent pay, and are welcomed with open arms by the homeowner who need their services. I suspect I'm preaching to the choir but I worry. A nation probably takes 3 or 4 generations (maybe more) to become a first rate technically proficient society and it can all be lost in one generation if the youngsters are not learning craft skills from their elders. By the way when one of these elders dies a lot of knowledge dies too.
JoeNovack
Posted: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 7:29:02 PM
Rank: Newbie
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Joined: 3/16/2006
Posts: 0
Location: Madison,VA
Bob,
I think that you should move this to it's own thread...
Posts have been steadily dwindling here but there are still a (very) few of us who come back because of the generally high quality of the posts.
I'm certain that most of the thread 'reads' are not by WW teachers but by search programs looking for e-mail addresses to spam.

As an adjunct to your post a VERY large chunk of my time in class is spent dealing with behavioral issues from students who had no interest in taking my class or were placed there because they did not turn in their 'elective' paperwork or someone decided that they needed the "structure and discipline" that I demand in my shop without regard for how their historical behavior would impact my class dynamic.
The few students who are there because they want to learn very rarely get my "A" game.
Very few schools are willing to do a good job of truly educating dedicated trade students.
All the best,
Joe
RoyBoom
Posted: Saturday, July 27, 2013 11:38:32 PM
Rank: Newbie
Groups: Member

Joined: 3/3/2007
Posts: 0
Location: Mechanicsburg, OH
bob itnyre wrote:
...For these students their niche of diversity does not include becoming a philosopher or brain surgeon. They love construction or plumbing or maybe even laying bricks. I have a number of former students who are plumbers, heating and air conditioning mechanics, and even a blacksmith. He is actually a ferrier and he told me so. My point is diversity is not being observed when we fail to offer classes to students who are vocationally oriented. By the way these students I just mentioned are very busy, earn excellent pay, and are welcomed with open arms by the homeowner who need their services. ...


Something that always bothered me is how we are told that students are individuals, and we need to adapt to their different learning styles. Then at the same time all students are put together in the same class, taught the same thing and tested on standardized tests. How is this helping the "hands on" type of learners? Some of my best students were from the special ed department, but since they shut down the industrial arts program these guys are sitting in academic classes preparing them to go college. I just don't get it.
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